4/25/2007
Free will and human suffering
See also how Khalid and I spoke before about "God is good". Khalids nickname is Kilo-Oscar, and my nickname is referring to my last weblog post (called “My soul wants to be a gipsy”).
Our talk started with Khalid telling me a story about the devil, from the Quran:
Kilo-Oscar says:
We are told in the Quran, that when Adam – the first human – was created, God made a comparison between him and the rest of the creatures, and He said: “This is my best creation”. And to convince the angels, he made Adam learn some sort of names without order. Adam had a free will, and he was able to learn the names, others didn't. Which proved his superiority.
So now God gave an order to all others to bow for Adam.
Then we spoke about Ayaan Hirshi Ali, about how God became a kind of devil in her eyes. And I said that from my 14th until my 30th, I didn’t believe in God, but still I never started to see him as a devil.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
It is sad, sometimes when human beings do injustice to each other, some people think it is coming from God.
Kilo-Oscar says:
Well as I said, God said that humans are the best creatures because they have a free will.
Kilo-Oscar says:
When people do injustice to each other then it is not God who is responsible, it is only the humans themselves.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
Yes, we have the ability to choose for goodness but often we don't use our abilities enough.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
It’s a question which is almost impossible to answer for humans, I think: Is a free will a positive thing, if it leads to so much injustice and suffering. If you know that humans are going to fight endless wars, destroy nature, so many people dying of hunger, with problems of racism, violence. If you know that all of this is what your creatures are going to do, do you want to give them a free will then? So many people who don't deserve the lives they get, who are good themselves.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
It will hurt God I think.
Kilo-Oscar says:
Well it won't Hurt God because he definitely knows what is going to happen and what his creatures will do.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
He knows, he made the decision deliberately. But don't you think he will cry when an African mother has lost another child because of hunger or war?
Kilo-Oscar says:
Hunger and war are all results of human actions.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
He knows it's the fault of human beings, but the mother who looses her child cannot help it.
Kilo-Oscar says:
She lost her child which is His creature, it means that he knew in advance that the child will die and he wanted to see what is the mother's reaction, will she have faith in God or will she lose her faith.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
Especially for the harm that humans do to each other it is sad to see how innocent people suffer. Personally I imagine God as crying for the suffering of innocent people, crying for oppression and pain.
Kilo-Oscar says:
In my view God has control over time, and maybe all that is happening in this life is no harm at all. Something like with the matrix.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
Life is always a test if you can keep the goodness and overcome the obstacles, but I don't think that God takes away the child as a test for the mother. The woman feels the suffering.
Kilo-Oscar says:
She will. And the man responsible for the killing of the child will be punished more.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
There can be a reward in the afterlife but it doesn't make this life undone.
Kilo-Oscar says:
And the mother who suffers will also get some mercy on the day.
Sometimes when God is angry with someone he makes his life more comfortable.
So that he will do more wrong and will deserve more punishment.
It is just like never interupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
Doesn't he want all beings to reflect and become good then?
I don't think he wants to see the mothers reaction. I think he wants the child to live, but he accepts the consequences of giving a free will to human beings.
Kilo-Oscar says:
And it may also mean that he loves the child and doesn't want him to go through the life process. Childern who die young go to heaven.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
Many things that happen to us are not sent by God.
Kilo-Oscar says:
The ones which happen because of humans are not, they are indirectly from God.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
Why doesn't he give some more rain in Africa, so the children have more to eat and can live? Why does he let them die, why is it so hard to survive on that continent, while in Europe we become indifferent because of all our wealth. There is no justification, I don't think that God finds that Africans deserve to suffer like this. And God doesn't approve of the harm humans do to each other.
Kilo-Oscar says:
Tell me something: If there was more rain in Africa and the people were living happily then would there be people who think like you?
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
I refuse to see their suffering as necessary to make me an idealist. If there is no injustice and no suffering then no idealists are needed.
But I know that the only solution is no free will, free will means people keep choosing for evil sometimes, and so it means injustice will stay.
It would be a boring paradise without evil, if there is no free will.
We would be unable to harm each other or at least nobody could protest against it, there would be no distinction between good and evil, no ethics.
We would live like animals, following our instincts.
Kilo-Oscar says:
At least I know that if there was no suffering then we would have never met because we actually met because we discussed this suffering.
Kilo-Oscar says:
We were created in different colours and made to live under different circumstances, in order to interact, in order to choose.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
That challenge is always there for us.
This doesn't exist like this for animals. They cannot help it if they harm each other and they cannot choose to become a vegetarian if it is not in their nature.
Kilo-Oscar says:
That is why animals don't go to heaven or to hell. But for us to go to heaven we have to make the right choices. And if there was no diversity and no hard times, then how could we learn to make the right choices…
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
Choice means that both good and bad is possible, if there is only good as an option then it is not a choice. This means that if we choose without the interference from God, there will always be bad choices next to the good ones.
Kilo-Oscar says:
And this is exactly what is happening.
Evil is there so that people can do nice things as well.
If everything is nice then there is nothing to do.
It is a matter if making the right choices.
Those who say that God doesn't exist because of the suffering in the world, are not really giving a good argument.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
Free will / ethics / being human is not possible otherwise. So if someone says: “I want all suffering and injustice to end”, then the next question is: “do you want to stop being human and become an animal”?
Kilo-Oscar says:
And all the suffering suddenly becomes a proof of God's existence
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
For me it is not a proof, it is more something I feel and a consistent story which I believe in.
It would be possible to think of other explanations for the suffering.
Kilo-Oscar says:
Like?
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
There is no God, there is no meaning of life. We are here by accident, as a result of the evolution process. We humans survived better because of having developed our brains in such a way that we can have a language, culture, and so on. There is no ground for ethics. Religion is a human invention, because we couldn't understand the world around us, so we invented a God. The more science will develop, the more religion will disappear. Everything that happens is just a coincidence, not planned by anyone. There is no heaven or hell, nobody to punish or reward us. We are here as a result of the big bang and the evolution process. On this planet the conditions turned out to be suitable for life. The command of "Thou shalt not kill" has no meaning, it is coming from nobody. If we all kill each other in wars then this is bad for our species, because our numbers will decrease, but there is nobody at a metaphysical level who cares about this. It is just a chain of causes and effects.
Kilo-Oscar says:
The planet exists because of the big bang (theory). It is just a theory. So this means that you believe in fairytales.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
For scientists it's the most likely theory so far.
Kilo-Oscar says:
Most likely, not the confirmed one.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
For our story there is no proof, and for the big bang theory neither.
Kilo-Oscar says:
And which is our story?
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
God has given us humans a free will, with which we can choose between good and evil. So it can always happen that humans choose for evil. Without any evil we would live in a paradise with no injustice or suffering. Many people in the world have difficult lives. There are good friendly people, who always try to help other people, who would deserve to be happy, but who have nonetheless a life full of suffering.
God cares for the people who suffer. He is closer to them than the people who have everything they can think of, and who have become indifferent. The reason that God doesn't end the suffering is not that he is a weak small creature who cannot do that, neither that he is mean and that he thinks these people deserve to suffer; the reason is that humans cannot have a free will if it is impossible to choose for evil.
So we can choose and we are responsible for the choices we make and this is why we are obliged to think of what we do to others. We have to treat each other, and the planet, in a good way.
Kilo-Oscar says:
Exactly the same thing I was trying to say.
And what about the big bang theory and evolution, do you think the theory is complete?
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
Yes I think so.
Kilo-Oscar says:
As far as I am concerned, I think they still have a long way to go, to make it complete. They say that when science advances, that things will become clear. But only when we have reached that moment it will be complete, otherwise it is not.
Who knows, maybe the science will be able to prove the existence of God.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
Personally I think we are too limited as human beings to be ever able to prove the existence of God.
Kilo-Oscar says:
We can't say for sure.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
Nothing is sure at all.
Kilo-Oscar says:
And as far as I am concerned, I just try to do as much good as possible, to be on the safe side.
Esther - blog: Mijn ziel wil een zigeuner zijn says:
Me too.
