1/05/2006
Racism and other bad behaviour
Here's another Orkut discussion, a Muslim girl (Su) posted a spiritual (Sufi) text and a Muslim boy (Ad) said that she should stop with such "religious freakshows". He thought that Muslims are backward, compared to non-Muslims, because they are too much occupied with religion and not enough with e.g. economics and politics. A boy from Switzerland (St) agreed with Ad and said that Su's post doesn't belong in the Discourse Analysis and Racism community. I replied that people can post whatever they like as long as the posts don't contain personal insults.
Then the discussion between me and St becomes interesting, because it concerns the question of when views / problems should be considered as racist and when not. And here's the story of my participation in a "black power" meeting, that St refers to.
And I couldn't find the pig cartoon that St speaks about, but I did find another pig cartoon with poor little piglet being executed ;)
St says: Esther - since you still cling to the notion of "racism", explain this: Ad is Pakistani, yet he hates the culture in his country. I really like him for his honesty and his will to change things. Is he racist? Am I racist? Nah, of course not! You might have noticed that it's all a matter of attitude, culture and ideology. We don't love or hate people because of the way they look or the group they were born in, but because we share their ideas or not. Trying to go along with the "racial" argument leads you straight into a dead end. Your participation in that "black power" meeting reminds me of that cartoon where you see two grim looking butchers surrounding a cheerful little pig, which is eagerly explaining his concept of universal peace and happiness...
Esther says:
How do you know that I cling to the notion of racism? Ad is not a racist and you are not a racist, no matter how much you or him dislike Muslims / the Islam or whatever.
To dislike a culture or religion or to dislike the way it develops or to be critical towards certain traits in it is not the same as to consider some races as inferior to others.
St says:
"How do you know that I cling to the notion of racism?"
You go to meetings where participants were selected based on the colour of their skin (you being the only exception). You thought that them having a specific skin colour would give them special insights or that they need more defending than other people of a different sking colour. I believe that we all have our specific strengths and problems, quite independently of skin colour and that the major problem is always in our mind. While you say so, you still do stand up for anti-racism instead of anti-bad-behavior. You still hesitate to call such bad behavior by name when it is committed by a supposed "minority". You'd be surprised how minorities multiply when they are given a special status, excemption from prosecution etc.
Esther says:
"You go to meetings where participants were selected based on the colour of their skin (you being the only exception)."
No they were not selected, other people just didn't come.
"You thought that them having a specific skin colour would give them special insights or that they need more defending than other people of a different sking colour.
I believe that we all have our specific strengths and problems, quite independently of skin colour and that the major problem is always in our mind."
We are all equal as humans, skin colour doesn't matter for our "human value". But in practice our "specific problems" -- or the lack of them - are clearly related to skin colour. The lighter your skin, the better your chances are in society. This is especially strong in countries like Surinam. Parents hope to get a bit lighter children, because the lighter their skin, the bigger the chance that they will find a good job and be succesful in life, because a lighter skin has a higher status in that society.
The major problem is in our minds indeed, the skin / race itself has got nothing to do with it. But the fact that racism / discrimination is an irrational immoral form of behaviour doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I cannot take away the prejudices and negative images that exist in other people's minds with regard to people with a different skin colour.
Sometimes bad behaviour, discrimination, a hateful discourse is too quickly labeled as racism, while it could be just a dislike of a certain culture. But real racism does exist, you don't deny that, do you?
"While you say so, you still do stand up for anti-racism instead of anti-bad-behavior. You still hesitate to call such bad behavior by name when it is committed by a supposed "minority"."
I try to distinguish carefully between racism and other forms of bad behaviour.
With regard to the African Roots Movement I implicitly said that racist comments where made in these speeches, because generalisations were made about the struggle of the black race against the oppression of the white race. That's a racist way of thinking.
"You'd be surprised how minorities multiply when they are given a special status, excemption from prosecution etc."
I don't give anyone an exemption from prosecution.
St says:
"I don't give anyone an exemption from prosecution."
Of course not: you're not a politician in power. But check out what's happening.
(And then he describes how the state e.g. in France, often doesn't punish minorities for bad behavior because of their "minority status".
It's interesting to see how the same elements always come back in these discussions. So, when is racism playing a role in a certain situation and when not? If what St says is true ("We don't love or hate people because of the way they look or the group they were born in, but because we share their ideas or not.") - and I believe that he speaks the thruth - then St and Ad are no racists indeed, and I confirmed that. I never accused them of racism, by the way, so at first I didn't understand why St said that I still cling to the notion of racism. He seems to mean it in general. When he says that their skin colour gives them special insights, he accuses me of racism, I think, and on the other hand he says that I fail to aknowladge the racism from their side towards white people. But I do know that a skin colour doesn't give any special insights (there are no brains in your skin) and I did recognize the racism in the ARMS speeches.
St says that I stand up for anti-racism but not for anti-bad behaviour. When he compares me with the happy peace pig that will be slaugthered, he claims that there is no racism where the ARMS people were fighting against, and in which I agree with them. That St personally can't be accused of racism doesn't mean that racism against black people doesn't exist at all in the world.
St said: "I believe that we all have our specific strengths and problems, quite independently of skin colour and that the major problem is always in our mind." He is right of course, personal characteristics are not related to skin colour. But specific problems that people are faced with can very well be related to skin colour. Not that the skin itself would be a problem, of course, but because people are discriminated because of the colour of their skin, they are faced with problems / injustice. This is something that cannot be denied, no matter how equal all people with all skin colours are in their worth as human beings.
Then the discussion between me and St becomes interesting, because it concerns the question of when views / problems should be considered as racist and when not. And here's the story of my participation in a "black power" meeting, that St refers to.And I couldn't find the pig cartoon that St speaks about, but I did find another pig cartoon with poor little piglet being executed ;)
St says: Esther - since you still cling to the notion of "racism", explain this: Ad is Pakistani, yet he hates the culture in his country. I really like him for his honesty and his will to change things. Is he racist? Am I racist? Nah, of course not! You might have noticed that it's all a matter of attitude, culture and ideology. We don't love or hate people because of the way they look or the group they were born in, but because we share their ideas or not. Trying to go along with the "racial" argument leads you straight into a dead end. Your participation in that "black power" meeting reminds me of that cartoon where you see two grim looking butchers surrounding a cheerful little pig, which is eagerly explaining his concept of universal peace and happiness...
Esther says:
How do you know that I cling to the notion of racism? Ad is not a racist and you are not a racist, no matter how much you or him dislike Muslims / the Islam or whatever.
To dislike a culture or religion or to dislike the way it develops or to be critical towards certain traits in it is not the same as to consider some races as inferior to others.
St says:
"How do you know that I cling to the notion of racism?"
You go to meetings where participants were selected based on the colour of their skin (you being the only exception). You thought that them having a specific skin colour would give them special insights or that they need more defending than other people of a different sking colour. I believe that we all have our specific strengths and problems, quite independently of skin colour and that the major problem is always in our mind. While you say so, you still do stand up for anti-racism instead of anti-bad-behavior. You still hesitate to call such bad behavior by name when it is committed by a supposed "minority". You'd be surprised how minorities multiply when they are given a special status, excemption from prosecution etc.
Esther says:
"You go to meetings where participants were selected based on the colour of their skin (you being the only exception)."
No they were not selected, other people just didn't come.
"You thought that them having a specific skin colour would give them special insights or that they need more defending than other people of a different sking colour.
I believe that we all have our specific strengths and problems, quite independently of skin colour and that the major problem is always in our mind."
We are all equal as humans, skin colour doesn't matter for our "human value". But in practice our "specific problems" -- or the lack of them - are clearly related to skin colour. The lighter your skin, the better your chances are in society. This is especially strong in countries like Surinam. Parents hope to get a bit lighter children, because the lighter their skin, the bigger the chance that they will find a good job and be succesful in life, because a lighter skin has a higher status in that society.
The major problem is in our minds indeed, the skin / race itself has got nothing to do with it. But the fact that racism / discrimination is an irrational immoral form of behaviour doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. I cannot take away the prejudices and negative images that exist in other people's minds with regard to people with a different skin colour.
Sometimes bad behaviour, discrimination, a hateful discourse is too quickly labeled as racism, while it could be just a dislike of a certain culture. But real racism does exist, you don't deny that, do you?
"While you say so, you still do stand up for anti-racism instead of anti-bad-behavior. You still hesitate to call such bad behavior by name when it is committed by a supposed "minority"."
I try to distinguish carefully between racism and other forms of bad behaviour.
With regard to the African Roots Movement I implicitly said that racist comments where made in these speeches, because generalisations were made about the struggle of the black race against the oppression of the white race. That's a racist way of thinking.
"You'd be surprised how minorities multiply when they are given a special status, excemption from prosecution etc."
I don't give anyone an exemption from prosecution.
St says:
"I don't give anyone an exemption from prosecution."
Of course not: you're not a politician in power. But check out what's happening.
(And then he describes how the state e.g. in France, often doesn't punish minorities for bad behavior because of their "minority status".
It's interesting to see how the same elements always come back in these discussions. So, when is racism playing a role in a certain situation and when not? If what St says is true ("We don't love or hate people because of the way they look or the group they were born in, but because we share their ideas or not.") - and I believe that he speaks the thruth - then St and Ad are no racists indeed, and I confirmed that. I never accused them of racism, by the way, so at first I didn't understand why St said that I still cling to the notion of racism. He seems to mean it in general. When he says that their skin colour gives them special insights, he accuses me of racism, I think, and on the other hand he says that I fail to aknowladge the racism from their side towards white people. But I do know that a skin colour doesn't give any special insights (there are no brains in your skin) and I did recognize the racism in the ARMS speeches.
St says that I stand up for anti-racism but not for anti-bad behaviour. When he compares me with the happy peace pig that will be slaugthered, he claims that there is no racism where the ARMS people were fighting against, and in which I agree with them. That St personally can't be accused of racism doesn't mean that racism against black people doesn't exist at all in the world.
St said: "I believe that we all have our specific strengths and problems, quite independently of skin colour and that the major problem is always in our mind." He is right of course, personal characteristics are not related to skin colour. But specific problems that people are faced with can very well be related to skin colour. Not that the skin itself would be a problem, of course, but because people are discriminated because of the colour of their skin, they are faced with problems / injustice. This is something that cannot be denied, no matter how equal all people with all skin colours are in their worth as human beings.
